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Learning a Second Language Passively

Answer to a post on a forum.

I have being doing this exact experiment with Icelandic for ~2 years– I listen to about 1-2 hours of Icelandic talk shows and podcasts a day while commuting, always new material, I never repeat.

Initially, I was chuffed if I could distinguish words (that I didn’t know) from the buzzing noise. Initially only the grammatical particals pop out (definite articles, suffixes on adverbs, etc) One day, I realized that gjaldProta meant bankrupt, which was a word I’d never looked up in a dictionary. More interestingly, I didn’t really understand the news article where I heard the word. I learned hrigja aftur means “call back” on a call in talk show where the caller had a obviously bad connection. There is more context in a stream on noise than you might imagine, after all, the blind learn English largely on input from a stream of noise with no visual context.

There are now 100s of words I’ve heard the point where I recognize them but still don’t know what they mean. However, next time I see the work krof, I will learn it in one repetition because they talk about it all the time on the radio. (It turns out to mean something like central bank reserves)

I used to be able to listen to Icelandic news and read English at the same time. It is getting to the point where I understand enough that it breaks my concentration. When I didn’t understand, it didn’t bother me that they were reviewing a book on knitting.

I think this has helped my pronunciation– I’ve heard a lot of people’s speaking styles. Young girls, academics, men and journalists trying to act serious all have different qualities to their intonation and you can’t learn that from re-listening the same CD over and over.

I’ve a long ways to go, but I think it’s helped.   (Listening to foreign language music on the other hand, has never helped me. Dunno why.

Locally Dead Languages, like French, and What they’ve in common with Conlangs.

Are we studying locally living, dying or dead languages? If one “learns” French and you never meet anyone to speak French with, or don’t move to France, you will join the ranks of people who can say, “I took 16 semesters of French in High School and College and still can’t converse very well.”  It’s a still born language with regards to your household– in your community French is dead, and never really was alive.

Like biological species that can thrive in one area and be extinct in another, languages fail to thrive outside their range or wither until their gone.  French is a living language in Quebec, Louisiana, France, not so much in Washington DC.  In DC, I’d call it an endangered language.   French, Spanish, German, Russian and Italian are all dieing languages in Washington DC. The domains of their use is vanishingly small and could disappear any year now.

A truly dead language can only be used to write messages to your self and read the messages from people who can never respond to you.  Knowing a locally dead language is a clever party trick, but otherwise a colossal waste of time.

How do you recognize the languages near you that aren’t dead yet?

A language is dead for you when you can’t use it in any domain- not at home, school, work, church, or on the street.  I haven’t made up my mind about if a language is dead or not if you can still use it on the internet on a forum or mailing list.

-Are there social events that are conducted in something other than English? This is the case with Russian.  Most of the events are in DC and Maryland.
- Are there play groups and immersian schools? If children don’t have an opportunity to use a second language in their community, they will stop using it.  Ordinary schools that offer French and Spanish don’t count because probably 99.98% of those who study French and Spanish and school will never attempt to use it in any forum and generally their students never achieve any interesting level of fluency.  The exception to this would be the various immersion schools in the area– there is one for Russian, German, Mongolian, Swedish, one in the works for Icelandic and so on.
- Is mass media available? The internet has only been half a solution.  Many languages don’t have very good internet resources and many communities don’t have a high ratio of tech savy people.  Locally in DC, there is cable TV and Radio for Spanish and some other languages, but out of the 50+ languages some one might want to study, the local availability is sparse.  Books, libraries and news stands generally a pretty grim picture for non-English materials–hard to find and expensive.
- Is this a job skill in demand for both native and non-native speakers?

If we are studying a locally living language, is a open or closed social group?
I get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that some language are alive in the DC area, but if that language group is closed to me, it might as well be dead.

Some existing language groups are open.  This is a subtle distinction, I doubt any social group is formally closed.  Do the existing groups go out of their way to advertise and gain new members? In the case of Russian, general when you meet a bilingual Russian, the like to speak Russian to you. If you meet a Swede, generally, they like to speak English because listening to broken Swedish is a tedious chore.

Enclaves are largely restricted to recent immigrants and their descendants.  Enclaves are another scenario of interest–outsiders will never be invited, many members of an enclave plan to go home at any time, so they’re not motivated to reach out to the local community.  For example, the Vietnamese and Mongolian community is fairly closed, in part because sometimes they’re monolingual.  You can’t find  them until you’re fluent, if you can’t find them, you can’t learn the language except through books, a challenge only the most academically expert can pull off.

Enclaves are the most linguistically fragile systems, especially if they stop teaching the language to their children or if immigration from the home country drops off.  The Scandinavian languages are the best example of this.  If I had a nickle for monolingual person who showed up at a Scandinavian language meetup saying “My grandfather spoke Swedish”, I’d be rich.

How to revive a language or bring a language to life?
The Welsh, the tiny community of conlangers and the Esperanto community have something to teach us.  A language needs to have prestige, a open community, tolerant of low proficiency speakers and lots of in person social events.

To bring a new language to life, it needs to have prestige factors. Esperanto speakers are working on world peace, Lojban speakers are working on clear thought. Klingon and Na’vi speakers are Sci-fi fans who can win points for being a competent fan, where as anyone can say they watched a movie and liked it.

So what would a prestige factor for a natural language be? Icelandic for some reason is prestigious among linguists and polyglots-wanna-bes.  Chinese has a prestige factor because the pronunciation and writing system are so difficult for English speakers.  I have no idea what the prestige factor is for French and Spanish and I don’t think anyone in Washington DC knows either.  Arabic and Pashto (and previously Russian) have prestige because a noticeable number of government and military jobs exist that require it.

There are a few prestige factors which I think are junk.

“It’s a beautiful language”  What language isn’t?  Even Klingon is beautiful once you get used to it and even Italian is ugly if you aren’t used to it.  I’ve gotten used to French and Spanish, so Latin strikes me as a rather ugly counterfeit.

“Grampa speaks it.”  Who wants to talk to old farts?  It’s difficult enough to talk to family in English.

“100 million people speak it”.  Do they live in Washington DC?  What’s the odds of you ever meeting 1 of those people and needing to speak to them?

The community needs to tolerate extremely sloppy speech.  Fluent speakers of Finnish and Hungarian tend to tolerate language learners attempts because it is so rare to find anyone who is trying at all.  French and Japanese fluent speakers have a reputation of tolerating only extremely fluent speakers attempting to speak their language.  US English speakers are the same, but it’s because we are sure as hell not going to learn someone else’s language.

The community needs to have public social events.  A tribe in the Ukraine used to have fabulous feasts, were they sacrificed horses to their god the sky father.  They invited everyone to the sacrifices and everyone ate, sang, danced and had a great time.  The people who showed up got free food and learned the language of the host of the sacrifice.  This tradition sparked off the greatest expansion of a language in known times, and in my opinion, explains why the Indoeuropean languages are alive anywhere other than along a particular river in the Ukraine.

Without potlucks, French, and any other second language being pursued in the DC area, will remain a dead language, an amusing party trick and a colossal waste of time and money.

Why I study the langauges I do.

I read French comics, listen to French music–but only in the morning, French movies.  It’s all about mass media.

I listen to Russian music, and sometimes make Russian food, although I’m more likely to read the recipes in English than Russian.  I’m trying to start reading the news in Russian on Mondays, but it isn’t looking to promising.

I watch Icelandic movies, read Andres Ond (the comic), and read the news in Icelandic every Tuesday.  I occasionally hold an Icelandic themed potluck at my apartment.  I read Scandinavian novels (but in translation) as part of a book club.

I study all languages as a part of my linguistics book club.  Most of the time I’m interested in linguistics as a way to figure out who we are and how we work, as a species.

I write toki pona the toki pona forum, twitter and toki lili because the language is so simple, I’m almost competent, something I can’t say about my L2, or L3, etc.

I periodially attempt to learn a language just to see if there is anything there to make me want to go any further. I’ve attempted (at some point in my life) and failed to progress at: Japanese, Danish, Swedish, Spanish, Korean, Klingon, Esperanto, Ute, Cherokee, Chinese, Bulgarian, Mongolian, Estonian and Latin.  Of these, Japanese, Spanish and Latin involved semesters of class work.  For all the rest of I’ve sunk time and money into them, generally with not much to show for it.  Probably an equally long list of languages I’ve at least checked out the relevant book from the library.

I have never tried to learn German and I never will.  I won’t study Ukrainian because it sounds wrong.

I never have the good fortune of having to desperately (or otherwise) need to communicate with anyone in a language other than English, and the few times at are close to that, the colocutor is highly motivated that they speak English and not me attempt to speak their language.

I have never searched the internet and having failed to find the answer had a nagging feeling that the answer is out there, but written in French.  Or Chinese.  Unless I’m looking for the recipe for snuther, which is only in Icelandic.

I have never searched for a book to learn that it isn’t available in English translation, except for maybe “Morðið í Rockville”

Is it any wonder that us DC residents are so hopelessly monolingual?

Fictional Murders in Iceland Now Exceed National Population

Thanks to a crime wave of Scandinavian Crime fiction, authors such as Yrsa Sigurdardóttir and Arnaldur Indriðason have driven the crime rate above 1:1.

Jón Siggison, a professor of Fishery Economics at Iceland University, tells us, “Three out of the last top ten Scandinavian crime fiction novels involved brutal murders of a professor of Fishery Economics.  I’m the only professor of that subject and frankly, this is making a little nervous.”

We interviewed top Althingi officials to get their take on what actions they were taking to bring down the fictional crime rate.  ”The real murder rate in Iceland is one of the lowest in the world.  We intend to do nothing about the fictional crime rate until publishers revoke the publication of fictional stories of pre-crash finance ministers being thrown from tall cliffs, fed to whales and ripped limbed to limb by angry mobs.  The extremely low rate of those mysteries being solved makes one wonder if these ’stories’ are just fantasy fulfillment.”

Author’s agent Hafdís Jóndóttir relates, “I’ve seen every permutation of the murder mystery imaginable.  I guess it would just be a matter of time until everyone in Iceland got their turn to be murdered on paper.  I must admit, though, it was unnerving to read a novel proposal about a Reykjavík author’s agent that was murdered in mysterious circumstances at their office.  … Biddu! Did you see anything out that window?”

Uscaniv

Uscaniv is a real conlang with a smidgen of fame now on account of being in “Conlang the movie.”  At the moment, there doesn’t seem to be enough information to translate the zompist guidebook, or order coffee.

Posted by character from the movie.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=101948553178051

CALS page:
http://cals.conlang.org/language/uscaniv/

Why we don’t give a crap about languages once English has won

This is why we don’t care about foreign languages and why when we do, Na’vi is just as good as the next, in fact better.

If you can think of an easy way for me to get linguistic samples from dying languages that I can analyze in my home, then by all means, I will learn a dying language. If learning Korean will provide me with a large but close-knit community of people, easily and readily accessible and willing to share, whom I know share the same exact interests as me, down to films and books, then by all means, I will work harder at learning Korean. Many of this have this as just another language tacked onto the pile: Prrton knows, what is it, seven? Wm knows at least five. And I personally tire of dealing with all of the irregularities of greek and latin, the inaccessability of Japanese orthography, and the lack of immediate community for German and French. I would love to learn a dying language. Tell me how, and I’ll start today.

Richard Littauer (http://www.slate.com/id/2248683/)

Creating Skype Chatrooms

To run a moderated chatroom on skype, you need to know these commands. The pre 4.0 interface provided a GUI for these commands. the post 4.0 interface seems to have fewer working commands and no GUI.  It does support group conference phone calls and both kick (temporary removal) and kickban (permanent remove) and well as a lurker mode for the world in general.

–Initial setup
/set options +JOINING_ENABLED
/set options +JOINERS_BECOME_APPLICANTS
/set options +TOPIC_AND_PIC_LOCKED_FOR_USERS
/get uri

Public URI needs to be updated should a chatroom lapse.

– Can people join?
/get options
/set guidelines Joiners must be approved before chatting.

– Add a user
/add foobar
/setrole foobar USER
/whois foobar

– Deal with bad behavior
/kick badguy
/kickban realbadguy

– What’s going on
/info
/get guidelines
/get options

Does last.fm care about malicious tagging?

According to the Russian Wikipedia, Лондон, published by uplifto is a Russian Pop Band.  According to Ozon.ru, this is light heared (or light headed depending on your taste) pop music.

According to last.fm, they’re the most popular Nazi band.

http://www.last.fm/tag/national+socialist+black+metal

This is malicious mistagging.  Most listeners can’t read Russian and won’t be able to find out if they’re listening to the next t.A.T.u. or nazis.  Already some listeners have posted that they have stopped listending to Лондон because of this tagging.

I think last.fm’s policy of doing nothing about malicious tagging is deplorable.

My conlang wish list

A conlang should be good for something, have a reason to live.  If described just by portmanteuas:  homelang, manifestolang/ideoculturelang, easylang, despressionlang, deaflang.

This is a home language.  A language will have the shortest words and the most grammaticalizations for dealing with its primary domain, in this case–talking at home.   Any good home language should have verbal affixes to indicate if an action is at home or away from home.  It should have a rich vocabulary for dealing with family, children and the significant other.

This is an opinionated language. A language will have compound words, short (root) words and grammaticalizations with an agenda.  No particular effort to be culturally neutral like Lojban or fair (like Esperanto) or alien (like Klingon and Na’vi).  This isn’t a mindcontrollang like 1984, this is a language that believes that culture does and must inform the structure and vocabulary of a language and can’t be neutral.  A language doesn’t control the minds of its speakers anymore than indoeuropean languages are making it’s speakers think and act like bronze age Pontic pastoralists.

Depression and Cognitive Therapy. The language should have features for the rapid detection of biased thoughts, such as catastrophizing and unrealistic expectations of the future.

Easy to learn to speak, but also easy to read and quick to pronounce. This is hard to achieve.  Up to now, everyone has assumed that isolating languages like tokipona  and hyper-borrowing languages are necessarily easy (most auxlangs).  toki pona is an oligo-isolating language that is way over on the isolating end of the spectrum and way over on the oligo end of the spectrum as well.  I think that this has made it easy to produce but hard to read and well as verbose.  toki pona does lack in the derivational periphrasis department because it wasn’t part of the original design and the community is still somewhat slow to convert words and patterns into productive derivational patterns.

Oligo-agglutinating. Piling on suffixes and prefixes is easy, phonotactically.  Also, if enough of these affixes are derivational, then we can achieve the ease of word coinage, without the verbosity of using whole words and phrases.

Phonetically. It should have an extremely large logophone-space– lots and lots of possible words with a significant distance between individual sounds and words.  Minimal phoneme pairs and minimal word pairs are not easy to learn. They may evolve over time, but that can’t be helped.  What can be helped is how hard the language is on the day of its birth.  There should be a machine implementable algorithm for generating new words

Scripts. It should be hand-signable and written using the 24 letters of the alphabet, without diacritics.

Using Twitter for your (favorite) conlang

Miniblogging is awesome for any language learning, including constructed languages.  Everyone has time to write a sentence a day, everyone can read a senetence or two.  Effective twittering in foreign language though, (especially a conlang) takes a bit of planning.

Create  new account for your conlang twittering.  Your ordinary friends don’t want to see the noise.

Always tag your tweets with the name of your conlang.  Hopefully you’re conlang’s name can be transliterated into roman letters in less than 140 characters.

Get a muliti-account twitter client. Tweet Deck is suitable.  Keep a search running for the hashtag of your (favorite) conlang’s name.

Set up a twibe. A twibe is a way of identifying people and tweets that are related to a topic.  You twibe should have the #hashtag and unhashed keyword for search.  If you language has a very common word that appears in most sentences, that might make a good twibe keyword, too.

Anythime anyone tweets in your (favorite) conlang, mark it as a favorite.  Without favoriting, it is impossible to track down the occassional tweets that get burried in the stream of non-conlang related tweets.  If you have lots of followers and you’ve just read a tweet by a person with few followers, retweet it for them. 

Create twitter lists that list:

  • people that only tweet in your (favorite) conlang
  • people that have tweeted once in your (favorite) conlang.

Use shoutem as a complementary part of your twitter strategy.  Shoutem is a more elegant solution to doing what twitter does for a special interest group, but twitter has more users. If you ignore twitter, a really large numbe of people won’t ever migrate to shoutem.  Shoutem also lacks the incredible number of clients and addon services that have grown up around twitter.  On  the otherhand, shoutem will be 100% in the conlang and have only people interested in the conlang– where as twitter has a filtering problem–many people who don’t care, many messages having nothing to do with your (favorite) conlang.

Sign up for a twitter scheduling service, such as twuffer.com.  Presumably you are the conlang creator or it’s biggest fan. You can create contest faster than the world can consume, but likley have weeks were real life interferes and you can’t do any conlanging.  If you use a scheduler, you can keep the conversation boiling while you are away.  Do try to respond in real time.  Subscribe